Domestic abuse has many ugly faces, and the array of strategies for tackling and preventing these issues are all worth pursuing. Here on the show today to talk about her experiences of domestic abuse, working in the field with survivors, and areas that could do with more attention, is Cristina Cordoba. We hear from Cristina about her background and how her work in marketing and communications was applicable to finding a meaningful job in the social workspace. Cristina talks about primary prevention and intervention and makes a special note about the importance of prevention; for Cristina, we should be focussing on stopping issues occurring before they do. This means education and cultural shifts, approaching the problem from a number of directions and not exclusively aiming at the actions of young women. Cristina talks about changing norms and what this means for our interactions with young boys and men, and how we can go about widening horizons and minimizing violence. We also give some time to the issue of emotional abuse, something that is often hidden beneath the more obvious physical harms that occur. Cristina explains the cycle of gaslighting and the long-term damages that can be done to someone when their sanity and self-esteem are challenged on an ongoing basis. We also discuss secrecy, isolation, and the best ways to support someone in an abusive situation, as all types of help or advice are not advisable. Join us for this informative and hopeful conversation with Cristina, and make sure to look out for our next episode too!
TIMESTAMP INITIALS
Harambe Social Services
Suicide Prevention Hotline — 1-800-273-TALK
Domestic Violence Hotline— 1-800-799-7233
Rhode Island Coalition Against Domestic Violence
Domestic abuse has many ugly faces, and the array of strategies for tackling and preventing these issues are all worth pursuing. Here on the show today to talk about her experiences of domestic abuse, working in the field with survivors, and areas that could do with more attention, is Cristina Cordoba. We hear from Cristina about her background and how her work in marketing and communications was applicable to finding a meaningful job in the social workspace. Cristina talks about primary prevention and intervention and makes a special note about the importance of prevention; for Cristina, we should be focussing on stopping issues occurring before they do. This means education and cultural shifts, approaching the problem from a number of directions and not exclusively aiming at the actions of young women. Cristina talks about changing norms and what this means for our interactions with young boys and men, and how we can go about widening horizons and minimizing violence. We also give some time to the issue of emotional abuse, something that is often hidden beneath the more obvious physical harms that occur. Cristina explains the cycle of gaslighting and the long-term damages that can be done to someone when their sanity and self-esteem are challenged on an ongoing basis. We also discuss secrecy, isolation, and the best ways to support someone in an abusive situation, as all types of help or advice are not advisable. Join us for this informative and hopeful conversation with Cristina, and make sure to look out for our next episode too!
TIMESTAMP INITIALS
Harambe Social Services
Suicide Prevention Hotline — 1-800-273-TALK
Domestic Violence Hotline— 1-800-799-7233
Rhode Island Coalition Against Domestic Violence
EPISODE 01
[INTRODUCTION]
[00:00:00] ANNOUNCER: The content of this episode contains discussion and language about domestic violence, sexual assault, abuse of a child, mental health issues and police brutality that may trigger strong emotions for some of our listeners. If you need support at any time, please call the national suicide prevention hotline, 1-800-273-TALK, 1-800-273-TALK, or the domestic violence hotline, 1-800-799-7233.
Welcome to this episode of We Hear You from Harambe Social Services in South Jersey. We Hear You is designed to give a voice to victims and survivors of domestic violence and sexual assault. This forum is for survivors and their allies to discuss issues that impact them and their families as well as to educate communities. In the coming segments, we will hear from survivors, they will tell us their stories and what they would like for us to know. As allies, we want here how we can support them.
[EPISODE]
[00:01:26] RW: Cristina, can you give me a background of your domestic violence experience.
[00:01:31] CC: My experience with domestic violence is twofold. It's both professional and personal in a couple of ways. I began my career in the movement, I want to say about six or seven years ago, and I was living in Rhode Island at the time, and an opportunity came open and when I had my son who’s about 8 months old and I was returning to the workforce. I was a little hesitant in taking this position because I had had some personal experience. Although at that time, like many other victims and survivors of domestic violence, you often don't know that you’re in an abusive relationship. So that was very much my case.
I knew that something wasn't quite right, but you don't really know what. I applied for this position, and I was up for a couple other positions at the time. But this one really spoke to me and they wanted me, and I took the job. And it was as public relations manager for the Rhode Island Coalition Against Domestic Violence. And the executive director at the time told me it would take a year before I could fully understand all of the nuances and the domestic violence work before I could really do the communications advocacy that I was hired to do. And she was absolutely right.
So I come from a marketing communications background, as you know what you know. And for the most part, that kind of work is standard across industries. However, when you're talking about domestic violence and some other sensitive issues, you really have to learn. So I had to educate myself in all things from primary prevention to intervention when it comes to domestic violence and bystander awareness, working with various agencies. How to work within a coalition and member agencies.
While I was educating myself on domestic violence, I learned that I had been experiencing domestic violence, and also in a previous situation, dating violence, when I was in college. Going back to my first year in the movement and education being a primary piece of that work, I became involved in everything from prevention policy to intervention in a marketing and communications capacity. So, what that looks like was advocating for legislation to pass that would protect victims of domestic violence advocating for increased resources for agencies and victim services also advocating for prevention and those services, because a lot of people don't necessarily see the value in prevention, but that’s ultimately how we’re going to end domestic violence and how that works together with intervention. In that, what intervention is, is obvious shelters and providing counseling to victims.
[00:04:34] RW: Thank you so much for that. A quick question, where exactly did the passion come from? Where did you realize that you had a passion for learning more in this avenue of domestic violence?
[00:04:50] CC: I have always been passionate about social justice and advocating for people who didn't have a voice. For me, I had worked with various groups prior to that, but I think it was my personal experience with domestic violence both within my family because there were other family members who had experienced domestic violence, and then myself, and dating violence. I just felt that it was something that I needed to be a part of. I needed to change the norms hat made domestic violence possible. And I was thrilled to find out that all of my background in communications and marketing could now be utilized to help achieve that goal.
So I, for the first time in my career, was completely passionate and immersed myself in it to where it didn't matter how much time I spent doing it. I would work around the clock just to get things done and to be a change maker.
[00:05:53] RW: Thank you so much for that, Cristina.
[00:05:56] RW: All right. Well, hello everybody, and thank you so much, Cristina, for joining us tonight. I have been fascinated by the fact that you're a very much an advocate, but so invested in prevention. And I really would like you to tell our audience a little bit more about how you feel prevention is key, particularly for the work we do in communities of color and with black and African-American people?
[00:06:26] CC: Primary prevention was an area of domestic violence that I had no idea about. But it is, as I have learned through my work and the movement, so essential to ending domestic violence. When we think about any domestic violence, we often think about intervention and we think about shelters and services for victims. But what we don't think about is all the norms that make domestic violence in the first place. Really, in a nutshell, what primary prevention is, is stopping it before it starts. It’s a hard concept for people to understand, but it looks like what we do in our community.
So you mentioned African-American and black communities, and it is really getting into the communities and the lives of people who lived there with a range of different programs. So it can look like – I remember in Rhode Island, we had a mural gathering where people from the community would come out and get to know one another and paint. And this was social cohesion. It was bringing everyone together. And those things over time, because prevention does take time, creates that social change. It's providing people with information about various norms. We do things differently with boys and girls, and it’s teaching young girls, but also boys about what violence looks like and how to have a healthy relationship.
We focus so much on teaching girls not to do certain things. Not to behave in certain ways. Not to wear certain things. But primary prevention means that we have to teach our young boys as well in every community, but in certain communities where culturally there is a tendency, for example, in my culture, Latino culture, to have the machismo to have male dominance. It’s teaching our young boys that certain behaviors are not okay, and that really when we’re talking about equality, it stems from these early lessons. Again, sharing that with our boys and girls alike.
[00:08:36] RW: Yeah. So, really, as you said, changing norms is really what it's about. Moving away from those behaviors that teach girls that they have to appear to be weak or appear to appreciate when a boy is jealous of them, or some of the other stereotypes that teach girls to be more subservient to boys or men. So that's really what primary prevention is about then.
So, I'm not sure how much you shared in the earlier part about your own experiences with violence within your family. And I know there're some personal stories that you do have. But of what you would like to share, can you tell me some things that you feel would be helpful for our listeners to know about how they can support someone who is being victimized in their family?
[00:09:39] CC: Yes. When I first discovered that a close family member was experiencing domestic violence, it was a challenge. Even though I worked for an agency that was immersed in this work, it was still difficult when it became a personal situation and how I was going to navigate that and give the right or what I thought was the right guidance. Because we believe that a victim is always the person who knows her situation the best.
So, it's really hard to come in and say, “You should do this, that, or the other thing.” But one of the things that I encouraged very early on was to create a safety plan, and that included everything from assessing the situation, assessing what her safety was and what she would do if the situation escalated to a point where she needed to get out or seek resources. So that was one thing that I encouraged right away.
We had discussions, and I think it's really important for bystanders or people who are engaging with victims of domestic violence to listen, because so often times we just want to say this is wrong and you should leave, and give are on advice based from our current worldview, which unless you know about domestic violence and really what goes on there with the cycle of abuse and power and control and all of that, you really aren’t a position to do that, because it can be very dangerous to leave an abusive situation. So you need to be careful when you get advice, because it is the most dangerous time.
I think it's important to really listen and to not pass judgment, not victim-blame, because we want to do that a lot too because we don't understand and it's something we say we wouldn't do, etc. And the other thing is to ask if they're okay, because it is important to also check in. While you don't want it to be so forceful on a person, you do want to check in, because they may not reach out to you. Using certain language that is not or it doesn't seem to the victim to be judgmental in any way or forcing them to do a certain thing is great. It's just saying, “Hey, are you okay? Can I help you?”
[00:12:08] CC: And that’s a good point that you bring up to how you check in with somebody that you know is being victimized, because I have heard that often it is not so much that the family or friends are being judgmental, but it's the thought that they may be judgmental. So then [inaudible 00:12:29] becomes very secretive and just doesn't – they just don’t around when they know they may have been victimized or they may be in a more vulnerable position if the abuser has to go with them somewhere to a family event. They just won't go. So, sometimes it isn’t so much what the family is doing, it’s more that the victim becomes very secretive. Did you find that to be the case?
[00:12:56] CC: I think that that’s certainly a component, because you remember that it's not always like that. There is the cycle. So sometimes they are in the honeymoon phase and things are wonderful, and all that he said before kind of goes out the window a little bit. So then they become very secretive for people that people are going to judge them for staying or for saying what they said before about their significant other. And so they can be then very secretive and they also might be in a situation where they are as not to say anything, because isolation is such a key part of domestic violence.
And so that you might have a situation where they’re quiet because their abuser asked them to be. I definitely agree with you that sometimes it is because the victim themselves wants to keep it a secret, domestic violence, bribes and privacy. Even though that may be the case, I do think it's important to ask those questions, to check in and to simply say, “Are you okay?” And give reassurance that they can talk to you whenever they need to, that they're not by themselves, and that there are resources out there for them.
[00:14:09] RW: Right. It sounds like it’s so important that even when they may be secretive or they may not be sharing as much as you’d like to share that, that they have a constant reminder that you do support them and you love them. So, that they keep hearing those messages alongside of whatever might be going on in a home.
[00:14:09] CC: Exactly. In my particular situation with my family member, she didn’t received the messages right away. It's took a couple years. But she did retain all the information I gave her. So, resources, websites, various statistics about children. Those kinds of conversations that we had, while she may not of been ready to hear it in the beginning, she never forgot. And so when it came to the point where she knew she needed to do something when the children were involved, she had that information at her fingertips and she also knew that she could come to me, which she did. And together we worked out a plan and I stood by her side the entire time from making calls, to being in the court and testifying, getting restraining orders, all of that when she was ready to leave.
[00:15:22] RW: That's wonderful that you were able to do that, because you’ve mentioned the toll of isolation. Really, how pervasive that particular tool is. It’s usually one of the first tools that a user will use on his victim is isolationist. Do you find that had to be true?
[00:15:44] CC: Definitely. Isolation, as I mentioned before, abusers use that as the core tactic in getting their victim to be separated from anyone who loves them and supports them and can help them, because it is about power, control. And when the victim doesn't have any support, they have more control over that person. And then what happens psychologically with the victim is that he or she starts to doubt their own self-worth. Their self-esteem gets lower. They may lose their job. So many things could happen. They get sick and they become even more dependent emotionally, financially on this person. It just perpetuates the entire cycle. But that is to the benefit of the abuser. That is what the abuser wants, because, again, that gives him more control.
[00:16:36] RW: More control. Yeah. The thing about isolation as well is that it's so subtle in the initial stages. It can appear to be romance. It’s like, “Oh! Well, I just want to spend time with you. I don't want other people around. Let’s just spend some time together, you and I. And it might seem romantic. It might seem fun initially, until the reality that it really is a more form of possession that is being used against them in so many ways. And of course, only gets worse. As different people are sort of pushed out of your life and you are totally alone and dependent.
[00:17:23] CC: Yes, I agree, that isolation often changes over time. So in the beginning, as you mentioned, it can be seen as charming. And wow, this person really loves me and they just want to be with me all the time and they’re super – it is a warning sign when someone seems to be too good to be true and is — that is one. And they don’t want you to be with anyone else. And people need to watch out for that. If someone is overly trying to just be with you and separate you from people but saying they love you and that's why. That's definitely a warning sign. But then it progresses and it changes. While in the beginning, they’re so nice and you can imagine them doing anything this way, or harmful, it can look different later.
So where they’re now talking about your relatives and saying that they're not supportive of you and there's something wrong with them and puts doubt in your mind. That maybe this person isn’t my friend or what have you. So that can happen. Or they threaten you or threatened them that if you do talk to them or you do go see them, that they're going to hurt them in some way. So it escalates with you, this isolation, and the person might start to feel like something is off here, but then they are also concerned about their friends and family members either finding out or being harmed. That is definitely a part of it.
[00:18:48] RW: That is another tactic, is the threats against family members, or even – well, obviously, the children. The children are there, or the pets. That’s something, have you witnessed that or at least heard about it?
[00:19:01] CC: With the children? Yes. And for many survivors that I've spoken with, it’s the threats to the children that ultimately get them to take those very difficult first steps to leave. And where in my family member’s situation, it was a threat to her daughter that made her say, “Whatever it's going to take, I have to do something.” And in this case, the abuser then transferred some of that abusive tactics to her because they weren’t working as well on her. So he understood that she was very close to her daughter, and that this would upset her. So it definitely is a tactic.
[00:19:45] RW: Yeah. Well, one of the things that you said earlier when we talked about prevention is that how important it is to work with males and females, because intervention over the last 30 years is primarily focused on women taking precautions so that they can be safe and not essentially put themselves in harm's way, and that’s sort of been the attitude. Do you agree?
[00:20:12] CC: Definitely. As this movement has evolved, certainly, we accomplished many things. Many laws were put into place, where – what was it? In the '80s, it was still legal to hit your wife. So, things have certainly changed. But then we need to catch up with the times and we need to really look at the problem and not just fix it after, it's already happened, because we know it's going to. And so, it's important to educate again both our girls and our boys about healthy relationships.
So with the girls, we want to teach them about boundaries and what healthy love looks like. And it is this possessiveness that you mentioned before, and there's a host of different things to look out for that could really help girls identify when a partner is potentially being abusive. And then with boys, it’s looking at various norms that exist about even saying things like, “Oh! You act like a girl,” or making disparaging comments against girls and women and treating them like objects or possessions. All of those things that eventually make violence against women possible. I think it’s addressing those very early on and changing the mindset. Also, that’s one piece of it. But another piece is just dealing with boys and their emotions in general.
There's a really good film about this. Is it The Mask We Live In? Or something like that. But it talks about how young boys are taught not to express their emotions, which is not natural. We teach them that. And they have no way to express themselves, and oftentimes that comes out in anger. So, it's the easiest emotions to express. And I think what that shows is that we need to teach boys that it’s okay. I mean, I certainly teach my own son this. It's okay to talk to mommy. It's okay to tell me how you feel. It's okay to cry. And it's not okay to say things about girls. It’s not okay to treat girls in a bad way. It’s not okay to hit. So all of these things have to be done in their formative years when they’re still very young. And that's all being shaped.
[00:22:28] RW: I know that one of the things, when we go out to do outreach in the community, very often, we’re invited – When we are invited to a school or a youth group, pretty much the first thing they say is, “Oh, is this for the girls?” I will say, “Well, actually, I work with both boys and girls.” I like to remind them how important it is to talk about especially healthy relationships with boys and girls, because it really is about changing those norms and those gender norms that do just as you mentioned. We couldn’t relegate a certain role to each gender as if they have to behave in a certain way.
And they’re only going to learn that if they are part of the conversation. But I think that a big part of the healthy relationship is understanding that they deserve respect, and that's for boys and girls. And if you’re really respecting yourself, then you will want to be respectful of other people. I think that's a big part of the lesson.
[00:23:34] CC: Yeah, I agree, and we don't want to put the burden on young girls, young women, to always be on the lookout for sexual violence or violence in a relationship. We want to create an environment or a feature where boys know this as well and they’re coming to the table together. And it isn't girls always feeling they’re on the defense where young boys, like you mentioned, have respect and they know what a healthy relationship is as well. Because, really, you can't have a healthy relationship where only the girls know how to have a healthy relationship. The boys have to know too.
[00:24:14] RW: Yeah. They definitely is both learning the new, what I call the new playbook. The old playbook was very, very different. And trying to get boys and girls on a similar or the same page in the same playbook at the same time, because our gender norms have been changing for a while since the so-called sexual revolution in the 60s. But we haven't really caught up, because some folks like the old ways. They like to continue behaving in the way that they have, men and women. So then when we’re talking about that, those kinds of complexities within the gender roles, it is difficult to move forward when sometimes it's not just the male, but it’s some of the females. They don’t really think that is perfectly okay to behave. Some of those more subservient kind of roles, they’re uncomfortable with changing that. There’s work to be done.
[00:25:17] CC: I was just about to say that that’s where the social change work come then, and that’s at the community level. It’s at the societal level, individual, and at the relationship level. So, really getting into communities and with the work that you're doing and others in this movement really changing those norms, and it does speak time, but it is not accepting that this is the way it's going to be.
I know, like you mentioned, that some people like the old way, but they don't know another way. So that’s why as advocates, we go into the community and we educate. And that in turn creates action and you start to see a new framework and people's behaviors changing on all these different levels.
[00:26:08] RW: Cristina, is there anything else that you would like to share with us that I didn’t get on?
[00:26:14] CC: We talked about prevention, which I love. It’s one of the areas of work that's really important to me. Intervention as well, which obviously is critical. And I just really wanted to talk about pieces that perhaps aren't as widely known, which for me it’s emotional abuse. I think we focus so much on the physical abuse as being the telltale sign of what a victim has experienced or what a victim's experience looks like. Truthfully, emotional abuse is a component, a key component and every single type of domestic abuse.
It can also exist by itself. In a situation where there is no “obvious physical evidence of the abuse”, which for somebody who is in that situation, it could be completely maddening, hard to improve. The legal system in this country doesn't really provide these sorts of even interventions that they do in other countries that have passed legislation to support victims and survivors of emotional abuse. And it can be things, for example, what we just talked about, the isolation, but it's gas lighting.
[00:27:34] RW: Tell us what the gaslighting is.
[00:27:37] CC: So, gas lighting is a prominent tactic that the abuser uses to manipulate their victims. So it can eventually get them to question their own sanity, and then be therefor have lower self-esteem and they isolate themselves even more. And they're now stuck perpetually in this cycle and don't even have the wherewithal to even know something is really happening to them or to get out, because they are just confused by this abusive relationship. And gas lighting can look like a lot of things. For example, in my experience, it was you might've placed something and then it disappears and the person says to you, “Well, you’re crazy,” because it was there. But then in my situation, I found out that he had moved it intentionally in an effort to just make me feel like I was losing my mind.
So, there are things that happen like this repeatedly, and repeatedly it causes you to be very doubtful of yourself and even afraid. So gas lighting is also when you're always wrong. No matter what you do, what you say, the situation is flipped. So even if you weren't in the wrong, the person makes – or turns it around to where you feel like you did something wrong. So I wouldn’t act this way if you didn't – it could be anything. And make me do this. And so this is why I act this way. And this is why it may seem too that I’m abusive.
[00:29:18] RW: Well, the thing is, is that the term comes from a movie with Ingrid Bergman. I think or was was it Charles Boyer. I forgot who the male.
[00:29:26] CC: I think it’s an Alfred Hitchcock maybe. No. Was it?
[00:29:30] RW: No. Not Alfred Hitchcock, but it was back in like say the 50s. But it was definitely Ingrid Bergman. But he was trying to convince her that she was going crazy, who would literally, with the old lights that were gaslights, and he turned the lights on and he turned them off or turned them down, and she’d insist that they were, “Wait a minute. It was just on.” He’d go, “What are you talking about?” As if he had no idea what she was – and he was turning them down. But he would turn it back on and then she’d come in and think, “Oh my God! I’m really losing my mind.”
That's where term comes from. But it is exactly the tactic that the abuser will be use to – Again, because this is emotional. We don't have to use our hands. We don't have to be physical. We can just really set you on that you’re such a nervous wreck all of the time that you are – you’re nervous and you’re trying to convince people that something is going on, and eventually nobody believes you. Because, of course, He's Mr. Charming and perfectly calm and cool and people just love them. That's one of the tactics that they use.
[00:30:39] CC: Yes. It's very hard to explain, but when you’re in it, you definitely know at least at the end of it something is awry. Because, for me, looking back, we would have these conversations, and there is a lot of condescension in them. I’m a smart person. I’m uneducated. But it used to feel like I don't know anything or at least this person is always saying that I don't know anything and would say let me see their facts and research to back that up. Just this constant belittling and making you feel like you don't know what the hell you're talking about. That over time is a very damaging until you start to realize what is happening and recognizing the triggers for that and the tactic itself. Can you really get out from under it?
Really, again, it goes back to control. It's a way for them to control the situation. If you have lower self-esteem, if you doubt yourself, you’re going anywhere and you're going to stay right there and during that abuse. It questions your own thinking, your perception, your reality. It’s very dangerous. It is a part of emotional violence or emotional abuse I was talking about. So, when we talk about domestic violence, we have to make sure that we’re also looking at emotional abuse that doesn't include what people think is physical, because there are obviously other physical ways to abuse someone than actually hitting them.
It’s having a domineering presence, standing in their way, locking them out of a room. Those kind of things are all physical, but they're not producing bruises, physically on your skin. And it's very hard in our court system to prove those kinds of things. In other places, they’re making headway into that, but that can be challenging for a victim in this way, because you often hear survivors say, “I wish he would just hit me, because it's easier to prove. It’s easier to get resources. It's easier to get out.” So when this happens, you have to almost think of a the different safety plan. And what that looks like and what resources are available to someone experiencing emotional abuse.
For me, it was very hard to figure out all those pieces even with all the information that I knew. And talking to my friends in the movement and, again, not having certain protections that even my family member have with the restraining order, etc. So you kind of have to be prepared as an advocate to work with victims who are going through emotional abuse.
[00:33:25] CC: I want to thank Cristina Cordova for joining us on this week for our We Hear You podcast. And we are looking for you to join us next time. Follow Harambe Social Services on Instagram and also on Facebook if you'd like to take advantage of our free counseling services. You can call us at 609-225-6936. As we said, all of our counseling services are free of charge to victims. And we would love to hear from you.
Also, about half podcast, if you would go to the buzzsprout.com, or simply just tell a friend about what you heard tonight. Tell them about this show. And that we would love to have you tune in the next time. So, see you next week for the next episode of We Hear You podcast.
[00:34:37] CC: I just wanted to add, we talked a lot about female, male roles, but I also want to say that when we’re looking at domestic violence, we acknowledge that it can involve multiple orientations, identities, genders. And when it comes to domestic violence prevention intervention, we’re looking at all of that. And we can’t have gender equality without it. So I wanted to add that piece in as well.
And the other thing is that I am very excited to be part of this podcast. I think that the digital arts media is so important today to really prevent and end domestic violence. So, thank you so much for having me today. And if you need anything else, just let me know. But as we’re working together, there’ll be many opportunities for us to collaborate, and I'm very excited for this.
[00:35:36] RW: Thanks again.
[OUTRO]
[00:35:37] ANNOUNCER: Thanks for joining We Hear You Podcast, with our host, Rose Williams, from Harambe Social Services, a grassroots organization in South Jersey. Harambe is Swahili for pulling together in unity. We use the principles of the Nguzo Saba in all of our services to educate communities about domestic violence and sexual assault. Our primary focus is to provide counseling services to victims and survivors of domestic violence and sexual assault. If you or someone you know needs to talk to us, please call 609-225-6936. Again, that number is 609-225-6936. Our counseling services are free of charge.
Be sure to follow Harambe Social Services on Instagram and Facebook. We would love to hear your feedback about tonight's focus tell a family member in a friend about to show you can help us get the word out and go to buzzsprout.com to make a review.
Thank you. Be safe. Be well.
[END]